Scale Auto Amendments Discussion For The 2014 Regulations.

[Springbok Racer]

Hi everyone,

 

It is time for all of us to consider our rules for this class. This is the only time every year that we can make changes (if any) to our regulations for this class. In addition we can also add any new cars and or replacement parts that may have come along since our last discussion.

 

From talking to guys around the country it would seem that most are happy with things as they are, but we had agreed to go about the management of our regulations in this open fashion and therefore it is now up to everyone to help shape our national racing in 2014.

 

Your comments and wishes/endorsements are invited now before we tie up everything for 2014. Please remember that this discussion will close on the 31st of December 2013 and the agreed 2014 regulations will be published thereafter.

 

Cheers,

 

Jan

[Guest jazzbell]

Leave the class as is.

 

Why change what is so simple for all. Number of entries at events still show its our number 1 class in Australia.

 

As for the 1.8mm rule it has nothing to do with handout tires,its all about the local racer that has know idea on set up.They can buy a car put foamies on and off they go.

 

 

Regards shane a

 

Team thunderbird

Edited December 19, 2013 by jazzbell

[Garry J]

I like the 1.8mm rule. It means no tyre issues when running enduros and you can use your old ScaleAuto tyres on other cars cause they still have plenty of rubber left when they're too small for ScaleAuto. A bit of planning across your racing stable can save you a heap.

 

BUT, for club racing I've always allowed customers to run their tyres down to the minimum over time. It makes the racing more affordable and breaks up the results because some drivers will be running high and some low at different times. Of course this requires some effort from the organiser to monitor everyone's tyre wear so no one is running low all the time, once a driver is down to the minimum they must be at legal clearance for the next race, and so on.

 

As for the gear ratio I haven't noticed any problems. Between the NSR and the ScaleAuto motor it would be hard to find a track one of them didn't suit.

 

And finally I've never been in favour of changing a class just to make it faster. We have enough problems with too many classes of near identical performance now.

.

[Garry J]

Adding more variables does not make tuning easier and I don't see how a badly setup car is going to improve against the competition when everyone runs lower. At the King Willys race there were a few badly setup cars but ride height was the least of their problems.

[Paul NZ]

don't change the rules! I have just built a car for next year using this years rules............................

[Noel B]

And finally I've never been in favour of changing a class just to make it faster. We have enough problems with too many classes of near identical performance now.

 

I think Garry has hit the nail on the head in that there is no doubt that the cars will become faster once you lower them.

5.9s on Jans track will just be too fast. I only state this track as it is my home track but they will be a lot faster every where they are raced. As stated elsewhere it is pretty hard to argue with the numbers that turn out to race this class on a national level to the current rule set and its the youngest class as well.

 

Noel

[BaVa]

I would like to see the motors limited to the SA Enduro as per the current RTR cars on sale.

All other specs as 2013

[first corner crash]

Funnily enough even though I am constantly bemoaning how slow most 24th scale class racing is, I would be against changing the rules in this circumstance. 1.8mm means that the clearance is much closer to standard than 1mm. to get 1mm you need to shim the rear a fair way or grind the tyres and also flip the guide and perhaps shim the fronts or grind the fronts to and for what? The cars have plenty of punch and the fact that they sit a bit higher makes them more fun to drive. At least they are alive. Making 1mm standard across all classes sounds good in theory but in practice it just makes people grumpy.

 

I have seen numbers drop away at club level with NSR 32nd scale cars where guys buy a car and then have to make changes to front wheels and guide spacers just to make the scrutineer happy. Some classes are best left alone and this is one of them. 1.8mm clearance and a fixed minimum bodyweight and you are good to go. Even a numpty can work it out. The beauty and popularity of these cars is their simplicity. Don't fix what ain't broke.

Edited December 18, 2013 by first corner crash

[first corner crash]

I wasn't saying the cars need to go faster or saying there is anything wrong with the class, I think they should actually be slower than they are becoming which is why I suggested a discussion on spur gear, they should have more acceleration and less top end speed.

 

at 1.8mm they are tricky to tune as the fast guys get faster the gap across the field will get larger and put off some people. Obviously I see it different which is fine, interested to see other peoples input.

 

One thing I have learned from racing is the fast guys will be fast and the slow guys will be slow regardless of what rules you make. The only time there is close racing is when the cars are underpowered and way too easy to drive. Anyone who tells you they have consistently close racing even with new comers you know they drive underpowered easy to drive cars or what's known as beer and pizza racers. ie non competitive people.

 

I was the worst slot car racer in the known universe when i started and my username reflects this.

 

(some say i still am but only those on the outside of a corner )

 

I only got better through sheer determination and making an effort to learn. Any hobby that you are good from the get go isn't worth pursuing.

 

What you are proposing makes tuning the cars actually harder for a newcomer not easier. Learning to drive consistently fast takes a bit of time.

Edited December 18, 2013 by first corner crash

[jimmyslots 1950]

I need a better clarification on the front tyre rule.

Front wheels must be either the standard hard rubber wheels with rims as supplied with the RTR cars or a minimum diameter of 26.5mm when using the RTR Scale Auto SC-2715P (26.5mm OD, 8mm wide) racing wheels.

As I read it, the front tyres must be 26.5mm in diameter,If SC-2715P front tyres are trued in the blueprinting process & end up under 26.5mm they will be deemed illegal & there fore if this is the case this is an Irish rule & needs to be made more usable,I'm Scottish & front wheels should last the life of the car,my home track {Woodlands Raceway}is Ferradore & very abrasive on front tyres as well as rear tyres so personally I need more room in the specs to practice with.

At the last Hornsby 8 hour enduro our car failed tech,we had 1.8mm ground clearance{no gripes there} but we ground the front tyres to achieve this believing the 1.8mm ground clearance was the main diamention & the 26.5mm OD of the fronts was just a guide combined with the part #. I have no problem with the 1.8mm ground clearance but the minimum outside diameter of the front wheels needs to be give more room for practice & natural wear to negate having to buy new fronts every time we race a Scaleauto enduro or an MCN event.

Cheers Jimmy

[Camber]

I would also like to see this particular rule amended. I see a little bit of irony (and confusion in our case last year) in being allowed to grind down the rear tyres and not the fronts. So long as the 1.8mm ground clearance is met, I don't see an issue with being able to get more life out of the front tyres. At 1.8mm and no front spacers, the scale appearance of the front wheels is not compromised.

 

The effort gone into formulating these rules has proven itself and are on the money IMO.

 

- Cam

[Paul NZ]

Scale Auto makes a 21mm rim with 27.5 x 8 tyre, this could be used to allow you to go down to a Min spec of 26.5mm...............this change I could live with as it wont alter the rest of my car

[axman]

I love the stability of Scaleauto rules and think ground clearance of 1.8mm is just right for this class ...

However there is some merit in what Cam and Jimmy raise regards front wheel size.

My thoughts are as long as 1.8 mm is maintained with no chassis modifications the front wheels should have the same interpretation as the rear wheel rule.

[axman]

Jasons quote - "I wasn't saying the cars need to go faster or saying there is anything wrong with the class, I think they should actually be slower than they are becoming which is why I suggested a discussion on spur gear, they should have more acceleration and less top end speed."

 

Axman - The stock 12t gearing on the Enduro is fine Jason... A tall gear ratio smooths out the car and helps with handling deficiencies. Also makes it an easier drive for the newbies and gives a challenge to the "pro's" to setup the car for fast entry and exit speed to achieve maximun momentum.

 

The challenge of driving these things with 1.8 clearance is the key to not getting bored, keeps it fun and you dont have to buy experimental bits in the hope of going faster.

Edited December 19, 2013 by axman

[Tim Tyler]

It ain't broke. Don't fix it!

 

(That said, I don't disregard the very well informed and constructive comments posted in this thread. There are some very good arguments. Ultimately, though, I very firmly believe that we are on a winning formula. Let's not run the risk of losing out by tinkering with it.)

[Chris1810]

I love the minimum body weight rule, other classes could benefit from a similar rule. But it doesn't seem to match the overall weight minimum weight. I have a porsche body that weight 47 grams, which currently gives me an overall weight of 188 grams. By the time I get the body weight up to 55, my overall weight will be 6 grams over. I thinks these weights and measures should be reviewed.

[Noel B]

It ain't broke. Don't fix it!

 

(That said, I don't disregard the very well informed and constructive comments posted in this thread. There are some very good arguments. Ultimately, though, I very firmly believe that we are on a winning formula. Let's not run the risk of losing out by tinkering with it.)

 

class definatly aint broke I agree, but we found recently when we did a scrutineering session on all the cars at club level most were outside the rules. Some of this was due to people not reading/understanding the rules but also from the rules being very different from all our other classes and people not understanding how to make the cars fit the rules and still handle ok. have seen several of the guys give up and just run smaller wheels and lower the chassis height and run bodies under weight.

 

I'm not sure what the problem is having to comply to a a rule set for a specific class.To state the obvious every class of slot car we race in South East QLD has a different rule set the only common rule is the 1 mm ride height for those classes.

I don't think the current regs for the SA hinders it at club level nor national level, I think what may have hindered it at at club level was the racers ignorance to the rules not the rules themselves.

There has been on going disagreements about other classes that we race on a national level and I for one disagree on the rule but its the rules end of story and if I want to race this class I must comply to be competitive.

 

Noel

[Noel B]

Having built some 15 or so Scale Autos I have never had to add weight to a body other than a Porsche I'm not saying that a few may need it perhaps they do. the racers may not have added all of the required plastic parts if they were building white kits as per the RULES... I also bet that if you go to other tracks on a friendly club racing night that a lot of the cars would not comply to their rule set which is fine for our club nights. Personally I always run a car that is legal what ever the requirements may be as this is the only way to develop your car to run at the pointy end especially at a national level.

 

Noel

[BigMick]

Personally I always run a car that is legal what ever the requirements may be as this is the only way to develop your car to run at the pointy end especially at a national level.

 

Noel

Have never run an 1/24 SA but this sounds like wisdom, the old beard in the sky type.

Well said Noel

[Noel B]

just also wanted to point out that the other common rules for most classes is being able to true front and rear wheels down to have them trued to an acceptable size (without having to coat them)

 

Okay I'll be more specific I have built 19 SA to the current rules and have never found a pair of fronts to be under the legal requirement. I choose to harden my fronts which obviously puts them well over size enabling me to do with them what I want with in the rules.

I guess I've just been lucky not getting an under size pair so far out of the packet. In fact I still have a pair from two years ago on one of my cars that are still legal.

As far as other classes go you need to true them down to get down to a 1mm ride height for the car to handle which as Garry says just adds one more element to the set up which is not needed.. I know you can get smaller Diameter out of the packet but they would not conform to the current rules of a MINIMUM of 26.5mm. I accept your point of view Jason I just have a different one. Maybe this class should be referred more to a cross over class from plastics to metal chassis rather than a beginners class.

 

Noel

[axman]

Who do you race for Jason.. And where....? I actually thought Jan ran a pretty tight ship when it comes to rules.. Even at club level.

I remember Jan doing a car check recently and there were only minor descrepencies. As Garry said, at club level this isn't a big deal, helps keep costs down and you don't want to be be too pedantic on fun nights or guys won't come back. What we're talking about here is a very clear, simple set of rules that we can use to race at a NATIONAL level. The guys that go to a National event are NOT new club racers so go to these events expecting stiff competition from other EXPERIANCED racers all prepping to the same set of rules. There is no point going on about compromising the rules to make it easier for entry level slot car racing because that just a part of the process that seems to happen with new racers (no matter what class they are racing) while they learn how to get up to speed.

[Springbok Racer]

I remember Jan doing a car check recently and there were only minor descrepencies. As Garry said, at club level this isn't a big deal, helps keep costs down and you don't want to be be too pedantic on fun nights or guys won't come back.

 

.....and I agree with Garry. At EE.au we always check any car that has improved a club record before the record is awarded. In fact Bruce is our official club scrutineer.....

 

But enough on that for now, please keep the discussion going on this thread, it is good to get constructive input.

 

Cheers,

 

Jan

[axman]

Meant to say constructive criticism, damn auto correct

I thought you got it right the first time... Haha

Edited December 30, 2013 by axman

[Springbok Racer]

Hi all,

 

Thank you everyone for contributing to this discussion. From all the posts here, phone calls, emails and pm's received it can only be concluded that we have a great class and that we should not change the rules.

 

However, allow me a short summary and commentary if only to clarify some of the points raised:

 

- Whilst this is not a beginners class (as specified at national level) it is the best transition class from plastic to metal we have for any racers wanting to join in with 1/24th scale model car racing.

 

- The main underlining motivation for this class and it's national (and international rules) is to keep it standard and as close to what comes out the RTR box as possible. The only changes we want are those that racers choose to make with in the rules. If you consider our rules carefully you will realise that you don't have to change the RTR car at all - but that you are allowed to make certain changes if you so choose. Therefor this class can be raced at any level from home to club to state and nationally by simply adopting these rules or parts thereof.

 

As for more specific issues - please don't confuse choices we have with mandatory change:

 

- Ground clearance of 1.8mm - if this is lowered to 1.0mm the guide holder has to be fitted on top of the chassis and we will loose our current flexibility. If this is done in conjunction with smaller diameter wheels - we again loose our current flexibility to use the standard wheels (more specifically the standard front wheels). This change when it was allowed at the 2012 World Championships was the single biggest reason why the class was abandoned in 2013 - we don't want this to happen here in Australia.

 

- Changing the spur gear - again, we will then have to buy another gear and will not be able to use the standard 44T spur gear.

 

- As for total minimum car weight - this is where the different chassis parts which Scale Auto has used on their RTR cars have caused serious car builders to be very careful in their parts selection. The early Scale Auto and MSC chassis versions used many lighter parts, whereas the latest Scale Auto 'bling' chassis is generally heavier in all it's parts. Whilst the 190g minimum total weight might be a problem in some car builds, heavier cars have so far dominated all our major race wins - so again we don't want to force anyone with an old chassis style to add weight, but rather leave them the choice if they want to. Please remember that all the parts - old and new - are available and car builders are free to replace any 'heavy' standard part with a 'lighter' standard part, without resorting to the (not allowed) carbon upgrade parts.

 

- Front wheel diameter - if you want to run less than 26.5mm front wheel diameters, then use the standard front wheels which are around 26.2mm. As for the minimum of 26.5mm when using the racing wheels, please feel free to start with the Scale Auto SC-2709P part which is 27.5mm in diameter and then turn it down to 26.5mm. In the 2014 rules the reference to using SC-2715P will be a guide only.

 

- Rear wheels - to ensure that tyres used at events where no handout wheels are supplied a very good ruling was made at the last Victorian event. This meant that the rear wheels had to retain a recognisable amount of the orange sidewall markings as standard on the Procomp 3 RTR wheels. There could then be no doubt that the car was actually fitted with the correct rubber compound as stipulated in the rules.

 

- Motors - our rules allow two motors (the Scale Auto SC-26 Endurance and the NSR King 25 Evo), both of which are available at this time. This gives us not only flexibility for different tracks but more importantly safeguards us against manufacturer replacement programs that have seen us in the past scramble for a common motor while they change the one in the RTR cars. This is a Scale Auto class and we should always specify a Scale Auto motor in this class, so if we are faced with any future obsolescence of either of our motors our first choice for replacement will always be the motor used by Scale Auto in the RTR cars or another motor offered by Scale Auto - but we should always strive to specify two motors in our regulations. Thankfully we can sort this kind of eventuality out when we review our rules quarterly and it will again be done with an openly considered discussion. But I reiterate - only if one of our current motors is no longer available.

 

Again, thank you for all your input and constructive suggestions - we will never please everyone, but I think we will please most by not changing our rules for this class. This thread will now be locked and the 2014 regulations will be posted under the 2014 section of this National Racing Class.

 

Cheers,

 

Jan

Edited January 1, 2014 by Springbok Racer