ZeGas Posted September 23, 2023 Report Share Posted September 23, 2023 Has anyone ever played around with cylindrical coreless motors for slot cars, although heavily used in RC I'm wondering why they haven't been adopted more over the mabuchi type for slots. Quote Cheers Grant . Home Track..........Corvette C1 Build..........McLaren M1A Build..........Maserati 300S Build..........Allard J2 Build..........50's Diner..........Iso Griffo A3C 3D Printed Adjustable Chassis..........3D Print Projects If life gives you lemons, take them, free s#!t is cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosco01 Posted September 23, 2023 Report Share Posted September 23, 2023 Hi Grant, I've been into electric R/C aircraft for quite some time - coreless motors are extremely efficient and powerful, but it is my suspicion for 1/32 slot cars - the small motor size would not afford sufficient magnet power for braking... With r/c, we use an ESC to power the motor - there is also a brake function.... there are three leads from this ESC to the motor. I believe it would be necessary to incorporate an ESC for a coreless motor in a slot car - just how this could be controlled, I don't know... in my application, the ESC receives its command from a radio reciever... and some thing would need be emplaced between the esc and a digital hand controller... I have no suggestions for this, simply haven't given it any thought. As you are aware, the DC motors in our models have very strong and permanent magnets... coreless motors are entirely different, and are dependent on the ESC for both power and any braking... I'm quite surprised, in all the years that coreless motors have been in use (affording r/c flight the ability to both provide enough power with very light power/weight ratio) that someone in the slot car industry has not seized on developing this technology. Of course, there would be companies who would also seize on the opportunity to exploit any transition... new controllers, power supplies etc. etc... I furthe believe, that when the "digital chip" surfaced in slot cars - perhaps consideration was also given to coreless motors... and it is possibly here that they hit a brick wall.... either with technology, or response from the fraternity with regard to conversion... Again, coreless motors are extremely efficient - but their shape and size might also be an issue.... to get something that produces the same amount of power etc... for the small size of motor that could be fitted.... Watching this post with interest... frats, Rosco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangermouse Posted September 24, 2023 Report Share Posted September 24, 2023 I had never heard of coreless motors. I have seen some posts were people are using brushless motors in slot cars. What I have read on brushless it seems they offer a more consistent motor and are a lot lighter than standard DC motors. But they seem to cost around $100 for the motor and ESC. What do you see as the advantage of using a cordless motor over a standard motor? cheers David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosco01 Posted September 24, 2023 Report Share Posted September 24, 2023 (edited) Oops.... brain fade... coreless motors - no, I should have replied to brushless - apologies to the forum. I have fitted "coreless" motors to some of my model railway locomotives... these are extremely efficient motors. They put out a lot of power from a very small package. They run at high rpms requiring greater reductions in gearing to be speed accurate. Compared to the permanent magnet DC motors which were replaced with coreless... my guess would be that for a slightly smaller motor size - they produce perhaps three times the torque... now, that will have some people thinking - I'm sure. They are expensive - I think the last one I fitted to a K class loco (Victorian) cost me something around the $120 mark. My retailer was only able to supply me with two different motors - one slightly larger than the other. These do not require an ESC, as for a brushless AC motor... but do require a suitable controller and on-board chip to control the power. I believe, from what I have read - running these on pure DC is likely to cause permanent damage... they need something to limit amperage or will run hot. With the DCC system in model railways, power supplied to the track is AC... adjustable, in my case to around 17v..... from there, the decoder (expensive) sends commands and power to the locomotive - forward and reverse... momentum, braking... all sorts of things that you simply program into the decoder. It might be something to look at... but it would be a universal change to everyone who runs on a slot car track with a constant AC voltage supplied to it... I'm not sure how digital works on slot car tracks - I have never been involved with it, but have two cars which do have the chip in them - never used as such.... excuse my ignorance... I suppose, for all intents and purposes - there is commonality with the DCC system used in model railways (and coreless motors powered by a decoder) to that of digital slot cars.... so, these comments are probably relevant..? DCC in model railways is simply brilliant... some 25+ functions at hand.... it may be overkill for slot cars, but I'm certain there are some serious modellers who'd like indicators, brake lights, high/low beam headlights, saloon lighting and all sorts of other things that can be controlled... it's probably more suited to a modeller, rather than a racer... of course, this would demand a controller... these are also expensive... as is most model railway componentry... For slot car purposes, as I understand, control "signals" are sent through the slot car track - each hand controller is somehow connected to the chip in the car through the track.... what protocols are used.. not sure. With model railways, there are a number of DCC protocols... loco's have to be programmed so that they can run on differing systems... but, it's the controller itself that makes the connection.... For example, a "layout" may have some 99 or more (in fact, the number of which can be registered is something like 9,999) locomotives sitting on it... the controller (in my case) can run two locomotives at any one time - using two "throttles" ..... each loco is programmed into the controller... and will respond when selected. I can have two "trains" running at any time..... with up to four locomotives on each train... If we are to look at our slot car application - we'd need to be able to have four or six hand controllers.... one for each lane. I don't know what "programming" can be done within these hand controllers - with regard to what functions they offer... that's all beyond me. I hope this has given some food for thought... my suspicion is that the digital chip for slot cars has been developed specifically minded to bringing the humble DC resistance hand controller into the digital age... there are similarities, I'm sure... but it's probably more the functionality that differs... Regardless, coreless motors - for slot cars?... maybe they are coming, but they will need controllers to match them... If they are available - I can see a great market for ultra-small coreless motors for scale slot cars... will easily fit within the very narrow bodies of F1 and GP cars... etc. etc.... these little blighters are small - but have a considerable power/torque output.. Apologies for digressing - digital slot cars are beyond my comprehension, to any extent... frats, Rosco frats, Rosco Edited September 24, 2023 by rosco01 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosco01 Posted September 24, 2023 Report Share Posted September 24, 2023 Just a couple of pix... relevance to size of motor... This is the larger of the two coreless motors I have fitted to my locomotives. A brass "screw" drive is fitted to the motor shaft, which drives a corresponding brass gear on the axle. It would not require rocket-science to provide a spur crown arrangement for slot car purposes. You can see how small this motor is - by my thumb over the gearbox.. these little blighters punch out a lot of power for their size - but, some protection would have to be emplaced to prevent overload.... it would be a very expensive mishap to burn one of these out. In this application, the motor drives 8 coupled wheels - the weight of the locomotive would be somewhere in the vacinity of some 450 grams.... tractive effort from the motor will not cause wheelspin (torque lockup) until a considerable load (train on a gradient) is demanded.... for a slot car, I fully expect that the tyres would lose traction well before there was an issue with torque load... this of course, all depends on gearing - in terms of model railway, the reduction is quite high... but, with a scale speed of some 115 km/h at what would be the equivalent of 12v DC..... the rpms of the motor itself would be very high... As stated, a lot of work would need to be done to satisfy an acceptable gearing ratio for slot cars.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosco01 Posted September 24, 2023 Report Share Posted September 24, 2023 In this next pic, we get some further possibilities... sound! I can only imagine what window this might open up for slot car purposes. The complete decoder (chip) which outputs power, lighting and sound - is shown in this pic. The speaker (if model railway hobbyists only knew).. is simply a mobile phone speaker - with enclosures (or baffles) to create bass... I can only ponder on what the sound of a V8 motor might be like as the model car blasts down a long straight at the rev limiter, or the screech of tyres under braking as it slows for a curve... there would be many more such sound projects to be added.. but, I expect you may appreciate - I doubt very much that gear changes would be possible.. With model railways, we incorporate "chuffs" to the speed of the motor - these are extremely accurate, in so far as the exhaust beat being exactly as the motion rods pass a certain point in the quadrant ...... all programmable and set... and all derived from the motor feedback to the decoder... Ok - 'nuff from me.... more food for thought. frats, Rosco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeGas Posted September 24, 2023 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2023 Ross, your still alive and kicking. Good for you, I'll need to read your comments on a PC to absorb. Please excuse me if I repeat info. I've been looking at coreless for a while but in miniature compared to RC. Similar to Rosco's train motors. I've found a supplier that has 12mm dia and was going to try them for some 1:43 cars I am in the midst of planning. DM Coreless motors, non brushless are very cheap now, light, and very efficient. The downside is that they don't have an iron core so you don't get as much downforce if you have steel rails, but as all my tracks have been copper that doesn't matter. I'm really just trying to shake things up a bit instead of doing the same thing over and over. This is one I've been looking at, only $5.50. Quote Cheers Grant . Home Track..........Corvette C1 Build..........McLaren M1A Build..........Maserati 300S Build..........Allard J2 Build..........50's Diner..........Iso Griffo A3C 3D Printed Adjustable Chassis..........3D Print Projects If life gives you lemons, take them, free s#!t is cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosco01 Posted September 24, 2023 Report Share Posted September 24, 2023 Oh wow - that's dirt cheap... might have to let my fellow railway modellers know about these. 20,000 rpms @ 12v...hmmm.. do they quote a torque? Of course, raising the final ratio (a lower end result rpm) would mean more torque... and I expect braking. However, I believe there would be prescious little braking that was mechanical... i.e. magnetic.... it would have to be introduced through electronic retardation... that's my take on it.. Yes, still alive and kicking... I go missing in big spells, as most of the forum is aware - sometimes for years.... Might be time for a return to slot cars.... I stopped at 100 cars.. but still have two on back-order... and of that 100, there are four white kits yet to be built. frats, Rosco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosco01 Posted September 24, 2023 Report Share Posted September 24, 2023 Forgot - what I can tell you Grant - is that these coreless motors are extremely quiet.... When swapped out from a "Sagami" can motor to one of these coreless ones - the loco runs an awful lot quieter.... yet produces more power/speed than the Sagami at the same power setting.. I am watching your progress with intense interest... as, I'm sure - are now many others.... frats, Rosco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeGas Posted September 24, 2023 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2023 1 minute ago, rosco01 said: I stopped at 100 cars.. but still have two on back-order Xu-1 & XY per chance. That's the only ones I have on pre-order. Not much else taking my fancy, more interested in unusual development if you didn't guess. Back to the motors, I've ordered a couple, one long (inline) one short (sidewinder maybe). The longer one will have more torque I'm expecting. Also a multitude of 030 & 050 motors to try out at $2 each. From China so be a month or so away yet, so might go dead for a while. Quote Cheers Grant . Home Track..........Corvette C1 Build..........McLaren M1A Build..........Maserati 300S Build..........Allard J2 Build..........50's Diner..........Iso Griffo A3C 3D Printed Adjustable Chassis..........3D Print Projects If life gives you lemons, take them, free s#!t is cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosco01 Posted September 24, 2023 Report Share Posted September 24, 2023 Yes Matt, I scratch built Brock's XU-1... thinking I'd have the only one in Oz... put an awful lot of work into it, including a built up open frame brass grille..... I was firmly of the belief that Scalextric - or someone, would have produced his first win at Bathurst - the 50th anniversary last October... but not, they didn't..... but have announced it this year.... I expect this model will be a sell-out, so if ever you wanted one - I'd suggest you reserve yours, folk. XY - yes, I have Moffat's XW and two XY's... but there is another one that I would like. I'd also like to see someone like Slot-It get into some of these classic Oz historic muscle cars. Scalextric (and we should be grateful) do a reasonable body and livery... but their chassis and running gear really is becoming belittling to the great models they are releasing.. If NSR did one of these models for us... we'd probably purchase an awful lot less Scalextric cars... Revo are another of my new favourites... I love the engineering in their chassis.... but, for speed and performance... the NSR models I've purchased are almost unbeatable... the Mosler probably being the fastest of all cars I have.. I have three of these, in differing liveries.. by golly, they are quick. Keep me in the loop with your coreless motor developments... I'm pretty convinced you won't be disappointed.... but, at that price - I think you'll be astounded.. frats, Rosco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munter Posted September 24, 2023 Report Share Posted September 24, 2023 Core blimey.... something new in the motor department, eh? And breaking here on Auslot! I am tempted to make a purchase Quote John Warren Slotcars are my preferred reality Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeGas Posted September 24, 2023 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2023 Core(less) blimey. Rosco, I wasn't thinking about digital at all, but for your FYI, digital track uses an IR light to trigger the switch for lane change. A simple 0/1 setting. All other features are in the chip & yes you could add a number of whistles and bells. Initially I was looking for suitable motors for 1:43 cars, Munter has sent a couple over to me to tinker with and I was looking at all sorts of options. While out with the kids playing with an RC cars I had this thought about coreless and started searching for small suitable motors. Still looking at more options. Quote Cheers Grant . Home Track..........Corvette C1 Build..........McLaren M1A Build..........Maserati 300S Build..........Allard J2 Build..........50's Diner..........Iso Griffo A3C 3D Printed Adjustable Chassis..........3D Print Projects If life gives you lemons, take them, free s#!t is cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShawnK Posted October 16, 2023 Report Share Posted October 16, 2023 On 9/24/2023 at 4:06 AM, rosco01 said: Just a couple of pix... relevance to size of motor... This is the larger of the two coreless motors I have fitted to my locomotives. A brass "screw" drive is fitted to the motor shaft, which drives a corresponding brass gear on the axle. It would not require rocket-science to provide a spur crown arrangement for slot car purposes. You can see how small this motor is - by my thumb over the gearbox.. these little blighters punch out a lot of power for their size - but, some protection would have to be emplaced to prevent overload.... it would be a very expensive mishap to burn one of these out. In this application, the motor drives 8 coupled wheels - the weight of the locomotive would be somewhere in the vacinity of some 450 grams.... tractive effort from the motor will not cause wheelspin (torque lockup) until a considerable load (train on a gradient) is demanded.... for a slot car, I fully expect that the tyres would lose traction well before there was an issue with torque load... this of course, all depends on gearing - in terms of model railway, the reduction is quite high... but, with a scale speed of some 115 km/h at what would be the equivalent of 12v DC..... the rpms of the motor itself would be very high... As stated, a lot of work would need to be done to satisfy an acceptable gearing ratio for slot cars.. Let me ask you this. What overload protection methods do you use for such a small motor? Is it some kind of extra board or extra resistance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosco01 Posted October 16, 2023 Report Share Posted October 16, 2023 Hi Shawn, yes, in my loco application - the decoder programming has options for overload protection... and limiting the amount of amperage to the motor - to prevent it stalling and burning out. I suspect, if we are to look at fitting these motors to slot cars - a decoder would be highly advantageous.... how that is going to fit in with anything but a digital control system is beyond me. Decoders for model railways are not cheap - more so if they include sound. Programming files are extensive... hundreds and hundreds of cross-referenced "if - then" strings of program parameters..... For example, we wouldn't want a steam loco to start "chuffing" if we apply the brake or reduce power.... controlling the rate of deceleration and keeping the "chuff" rate exactly to the relative position of the crank rods etc. etc. etc... I am keen to learn how Grant is progressing with this... coreless motors are a power packed little unit - but I believe they are vulnerable to burning out if loads are extreme, or even excessive.. frats, Rosco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeGas Posted October 18, 2023 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2023 Well the motors have arrived and I have looked at the coreless motor in brief. It is well weighty and offers excellent magnetic attraction, hangs on the fridge door fine. At 1:43 I am finding I do not have the tools or gear suitable so am waiting on supplies. eg. pinion puller 1.5mm, 1.4mm screws, pinion and crown gears suitable for 1:43, wheel rims etc. I have sourced some of these and am awaiting delivery. This motor is for analog experimentation only not interested in it for digital so am keeping it simple. First things first, I have spent the past couple of weeks designing & finalising a prototype chassis for it, to suit a 1:43 Porsche 928 body I have cast. some photos to whet the appetite Quote Cheers Grant . Home Track..........Corvette C1 Build..........McLaren M1A Build..........Maserati 300S Build..........Allard J2 Build..........50's Diner..........Iso Griffo A3C 3D Printed Adjustable Chassis..........3D Print Projects If life gives you lemons, take them, free s#!t is cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosco01 Posted October 18, 2023 Report Share Posted October 18, 2023 Great work,Grant... the worm gear certainly looks as if it comes from a model railway application. The crown gears for these are not straight cut, but are a married coupling... they mesh beautifully with almost no backlash. Very keen to keep pace (pun intended) with your work on this project - in 1:43... I believe you'll be stunned at how this motor performs.... they are little packages of dynamite - the torque will amaze you, and how quiet they are. frats, Rosco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kieran Posted October 19, 2023 Report Share Posted October 19, 2023 ZeGas I think what you've done looks very professional. I am interested in digital and 1/43 because my longer term goal is a digital oval track (2 or 3 lanes plus a separate pit lane) for stock car/indycar racing, but with a track length that is close to scale. A 400 metre oval track needs 16.7 metres for 1/24 but only 9.3 metres for 1/43. Because my track will be at home space is limited, and 1/43 therefore becomes more attractive. Pattos Place still advertise MJK chassis that have measurements close enough for a sedan in 1/43 and he makes lexan bodies in 1/43 as well, along with NBS 3D in resin print. Sorry for hijacking your thread. Did Home Racing World provide any leads for 1/43 parts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeGas Posted October 19, 2023 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2023 Fairs fair Kieran, I did sort of hijack your 1:43 thread as well. I see it as all part of a conversation. Did ask on HWR got some direction but it seems most use HO parts for some like crown gears, motors etc. couldn't find Ranch Design on facebook. Most of the bits I need I have sourced except rims. I have a couple of Technoslot kits from years back that I am harvesting the rims from as they used 3/32 axles as well, so temporarily should be OK. Hopefully I will be taking receipt of a CNC soon that has a lathe attachment, I'll see if that can do small rims. Quote Cheers Grant . Home Track..........Corvette C1 Build..........McLaren M1A Build..........Maserati 300S Build..........Allard J2 Build..........50's Diner..........Iso Griffo A3C 3D Printed Adjustable Chassis..........3D Print Projects If life gives you lemons, take them, free s#!t is cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Gunn Posted October 24, 2023 Report Share Posted October 24, 2023 Noted this from NSR is this the future i wonder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazza Posted October 24, 2023 Report Share Posted October 24, 2023 I suppose it depends on what sort of enjoyment you want to get out of slotcars 1 Quote Quickly read this post before it is deleted or i turn grey again Gary http://www.facebook.com/Rallyproxy2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeGas Posted October 24, 2023 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2023 The thieving little .... Quote Cheers Grant . Home Track..........Corvette C1 Build..........McLaren M1A Build..........Maserati 300S Build..........Allard J2 Build..........50's Diner..........Iso Griffo A3C 3D Printed Adjustable Chassis..........3D Print Projects If life gives you lemons, take them, free s#!t is cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeGas Posted November 8, 2023 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2023 One step closer, the crown gears arrived a little early, weren't expected till December. 1:43 chassis set up for testing, trued the tyres last night & set the guide up. All ready for a big test tonight, I'll set up a basic scaley track. Mesh on gears is good. Have used bearings for the axles, next time I think I will use bushes for ease of removing. 1 Quote Cheers Grant . Home Track..........Corvette C1 Build..........McLaren M1A Build..........Maserati 300S Build..........Allard J2 Build..........50's Diner..........Iso Griffo A3C 3D Printed Adjustable Chassis..........3D Print Projects If life gives you lemons, take them, free s#!t is cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosco01 Posted November 8, 2023 Report Share Posted November 8, 2023 I have no doubt this is going to be a pocket rocket, Grant... Keen to learn your findings.. frats, Rosco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangermouse Posted November 8, 2023 Report Share Posted November 8, 2023 On 10/24/2023 at 7:46 PM, Peter Gunn said: Noted this from NSR is this the future i wonder At 300 euro for the motor and 70 euro for the ESC it won't be appearing anywhere in my future Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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